March 12, 2004 Comments from a Jewish
friend in Pennsylvania:
I find your page very interesting. However, like most evangelists
your logic is circular (I know the bible to be true, because it says so in the
bible). IMHO no one know when divine things are going to happen because G-D
does not feel we have the "need-to-know" to put it in a military security
manner. It is only due to human stupidity that we try to find profound answers
to questions in a book written by man. Yes I believe in the bible stories, but
one has to remember that they were passed down from generation to generation
and only written down for the first time a couple of thousand years ago. Just
play "whisper down the lane" with your grandkids and see what happens. I
guarantee something of the same sort occurred as the bible was finally written
down. So, we might be looking for deep meaning in things where none are to be
found, because the sections that we are bracketing off as profound might just
be the ramblings of the original human who inked the first bible.
We don't know, and we won't until we meet our maker - whenever that will
be. My response:
Thanks for your thoughtful reply. You are absolutely correct, I
believe and therefore assume that the Bible is true. I also believe that our
loving Heavenly Father wants us to know and understand about those events
which affect us. I believe the Bible is the inspired writings of men, not
children, with an oral tradition much greater and more serious than passing on
stories. Further comment:
They were inspired writings of men, not children, but humans are
imperfect, no matter how hard we try. Consequently, some of the oral
traditions had to be morphed due to human imperfection and the passage of
time. It's not that they are completely wrong. It's just that they are not
completely correct either. What part is wrong and what part is correct is
guesswork at this point and therefore makes figuring things out extremely
difficult, if not impossible. Maybe this was G-D's plan from the beginning,
maybe not. None of us know. My response:
Your comments are so insightful that I hope you don't mind if I
include them on the website. Further comment:
Not at all, provided they are not taken out of context.
My response:
They will be included in their entirety along with replies and
responses. I did remove greetings, signatures, and other chitchat.
March 14, 2004 Comments from an Adventist friend in Michigan:
I read your web page with interest. I was reminded of 1964. I can
well remember the furor/fervor in our local church regarding the fact that 120
years had elapsed since the 1844 message and Noah preached for 120 years. I
believed with all the belief possible in a 6 year old "heart" that this was
"the truth." I now find the concept of a "soon coming Savior" difficult at
best---but don't quote me on that. You might find the attached {Religious
Rituals article} from the recent (March-April 2004) American Scientist, page
166-172, article of interest in that regard, however.
{My wife}'s research has lead to the conclusion that 40 years is basically
a biblical phrase meaning a long time or lifetime and doesn't necessarily
refer to exactly 40 complete orbits of Terra around Sol. This is very
consistent with many other areas where the nonliteral mindset of earlier
generations is badly interpreted by our literal mindset. Thanks for sharing.
My response:
Please, please let me quote you anonymously. I don't know how to
convey to you the anguish and struggle I went through when I first made these
observations. I am deeply ingrained with the Adventist mindset that you never
even think to mention a date for the Lord's return. Your comments are the
exact epitome of the results of such action. It was with the deepest
reluctance that I ever shared this with anyone. It was months before I went
public with more than just the fewest closest friends and family. It was only
yesterday that I finally shared with the greatest potential critic, my pastor.
My observations are not conclusive. I may be wrong. After months of
struggle I felt that I could not hold back. My prayer is that the will of God
is served by my actions. My greater prayer is that the Lord return soon and
end the terror of sin. Further comment:
Anonymously is ok. I should add that
I must therefore plan for the future, my career, my retirement, not leave
the harvest in the ground or build buildings of wood and straw, etc. concepts
which plagued our early pioneers, and even my brother today (as a pastor,
opting out of social security). My response:
That is one of the big problems with a heightened awareness of the
"soon coming Saviour". It is so tempting to make plans based on the assumption
of His soon return. I was eleven in 1964 but I don't remember anything about
an expectation. I have started to hear whispers of others who suspect a 2004
return like I do. I struggle with myself to decide how I want to react.
I feel it is impossible to continue with a "business as usual" attitude as
I observe in so many others. I have actually heard some say, including a
pastor's wife, that they were in no hurry for the Lord to return. I was
shocked to say the least. There must be some kind of middle ground between the
two extremes.
I have never been materialistic but lately my interest in material things
has dropped so much. Lately I feel burdened with possessions. I have started
giving away and discarding things, some of which I used to treasure. I long
for the day when I can shed home, car and everything else I possess. I have
developed a "love/hate relationship" with computers. I long for the day of the
Lord's return. Further comment:
My research indicates that the 6000 year notion is unfounded, at
best extrabiblical, and I classify it with EGW's statements regarding
volcanism being caused by coal burning. It's too bad it found its way into
"someone's" interpretation of the "27 fundamental beliefs".
March 29, 2004 Comments from an Adventist Pastor in Pennsylvania:
I was doing some research pertaining to your article, and wanted
to see what the Lord's Messenger had to say and ran across these quotes. By
the way your research has been very interesting and thought provoking. It
causes one to realize that the Lord is coming soon and we must be ready no
matter when the signs show themselves. We are told that last movement will be
fast in coming So found these quotes quite revealing. Here are the quotes:
Warned in Regard to Time Setting
Christ gave to His disciples truths whose breadth and depth and value they
little appreciated, or even comprehended, and the same condition exists among
the people of God today. We too have failed to take in the greatness, to
perceive the beauty of the truth which God has entrusted to us today. Should
we advance in spiritual knowledge, we would see the truth developing and
expanding in lines of which we have little dreamed, but it will never develop
in any line that will lead us to imagine that we may know the times and the
seasons which the Father hath put in His own power. Again and again have I
been warned in regard to time setting. There will never again be a message for
the people of God that will be based on time. We are not to know the definite
time either for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit or for the coming of Christ.
{1SM 188.1}
I was searching through my writings, before coming to this meeting, to see
what I should take with me to Australia, and I found an envelope on which was
written, "Testimony given in regard to time setting, June 21, 1851 Preserve
carefully." I opened it, and this is what I found. It reads: {1SM 188.2}
"A copy of a vision the Lord gave Sister White, June 21, 1851, at Camden,
N.Y. The Lord showed me that the message must go, and that it must not be hung
on time; for time will never be a test again. I saw that some were getting a
false excitement, arising from preaching time, that the third angel's message
can stand on its own foundation, and that it needs not time to strengthen it,
and that it will go with mighty power, and do its work, and will be cut short
in righteousness. {1SM 188.3}
"I saw some were making everything bend to this next fall; that is, making
their calculations, and disposing of their property in reference to that time.
I saw that this was wrong for this reason: instead of going to God daily, and
earnestly desiring to know their present duty, they looked ahead, and made
their calculations as though they knew that the work would end this fall,
without inquiring their duty of God daily.--E. G. White {1SM 188.4}
"Copied at Milton, June 29, 1851, A. A. G." {1SM 189.1}
This was the document I came upon last Monday in searching over my
writings, and here is another which was written in regard to a man who was
setting time in 1884, and sending broadcast his arguments to prove his
theories. The report of what he was doing was brought to me at the Jackson
{Michigan} camp meeting, and I told the people they need not take heed to this
man's theory; for the event he predicted would not take place. The times and
the seasons God has put in His own power. And why has not God given us this
knowledge?--Because we would not make a right use of it if He did. A condition
of things would result from this knowledge among our people that would greatly
retard the work of God in preparing a people to stand in the great day that is
to come. We are not to live upon time excitement. We are not to be engrossed
with speculations in regard to the times and the seasons which God has not
revealed. Jesus has told His disciples to "watch," but not for a definite
time. His followers are to be in the position of those who are listening for
the orders of their Captain; they are to watch, wait, pray, and work, as they
approach the time for the coming of the Lord; but no one will be able to
predict just when that time will come; for "of that day and hour knoweth no
man." You will not be able to say that He will come in one, two, or five
years, neither are you to put off His coming by stating that it may not be for
ten or twenty years. {1SM 189.2}
To Have Lamps Trimmed and Burning
It is the duty of the people of God to have their lamps trimmed and
burning, to be as men that wait for the Bridegroom, when He shall return from
the wedding. You have not a moment to lose in neglect of the great salvation
that has been provided for you. The time of the probation of souls is coming
to an end. From day to day the destiny of men is being sealed, and even from
this congregation we know not how soon many shall close their eyes in death
and be habited for the tomb. We should now consider that our life is swiftly
passing away, that we are not safe one moment unless our life is hid with
Christ in God. Our duty is not to be looking forward to some special time for
some special work to be done for us but to go forward in our work of warning
the world; for we are to be witnesses of Christ to the uttermost parts of the
world. {1SM 189.3}
All around us are the young, the impenitent, the unconverted, and what are
we doing for them? Parents, in the ardor of your first love, are you seeking
for the conversion of your children, or are you engrossed with the things of
this life to such an extent that you are not making earnest efforts to be
laborers together with God? Do you have an appreciation of the work and
mission of the Holy Spirit? Do you realize that the Holy Spirit is the agency
whereby we are to reach the souls of those around us? When this meeting shall
close, will you go from here and forget the earnest appeals that have been
made to you? Will the messages of warning be left unheeded, and the truth you
have heard leak out of your heart as water leaks out of a broken vessel? {1SM
190.1}
The apostle says, "Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the
things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. For if
the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and
disobedience received a just recompence of reward; how shall we escape, if we
neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord,
and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them
witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of
the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?" (Heb. 2:1-4). {1SM 190 2}
The third angel's message is swelling into a loud cry, and you must not
feel at liberty to neglect the present duty, and still entertain the idea that
at some future time you will be the recipients of great blessing, when without
any effort on your part a wonderful revival will take place. Today you are to
give yourselves to God, that He may make of you vessels unto honor, and meet
for His service. Today you are to give yourself to God, that you may be
emptied of self, emptied of envy, jealousy, evil surmising, strife, everything
that shall be dishonoring to God. Today you are to have your vessel purified
that it may be ready for the heavenly dew, ready for the showers of the latter
rain; for the latter rain will come, and the blessing of God will fill every
soul that is purified from every defilement. It is our work today to yield our
souls to Christ, that we may be fitted for the time of refreshing from the
presence of the Lord--fitted for the baptism of the Holy Spirit.--The Review
and Herald, March 22, 1892. {1SM 190.3}
The Time Not Revealed
God has not revealed to us the time when this message will close, or when
probation will have an end. Those things that are revealed we shall accept for
ourselves and for our children; but let us not seek to know that which has
been kept secret in the councils of the Almighty. It is our duty to watch and
work and wait, to labor every moment for the souls of men that are ready to
perish. We are to keep walking continually in the footsteps of Jesus, working
in His lines, dispensing His gifts as good stewards of the manifold grace of
God. Satan will be ready to give to anyone who is not learning every day of
Jesus, a special message of his own creating, in order to make of no effect
the wonderful truth for this time. {1SM 191.1}
Letters have come to me asking me if I have any special light as to the
time when probation will close; and I answer that I have only this message to
bear, that it is now time to work while the day lasts, for the night cometh in
which no man can work. Now, just now, it is time for us to be watching,
working, and waiting. The Word of the Lord reveals the fact that the end of
all things is at hand, and its testimony is most decided that it is necessary
for every soul to have the truth planted in the heart so that it will control
the life and sanctify the character. The Spirit of the Lord is working to take
the truth of the inspired Word and stamp it upon the soul so that professed
followers of Christ will have a holy, sacred joy that they will be able to
impart to others. The opportune time for us to work is now, just now, while
the day lasts. But there is no command for anyone to search the Scripture in
order to ascertain, if possible, when probation will close. God has no such
message for any mortal lips. He would have no mortal tongue declare that which
He has hidden in His secret councils.--The Review and Herald, Oct. 9, 1894.
{1SM 191.2}
Watch and Pray
I have no specific time of which to speak when the outpouring of the Holy
Spirit will take place--when the mighty angel will come down from heaven, and
unite with the third angel in closing up the work for this world my message is
that our only safety is in being ready for the heavenly refreshing, having our
lamps trimmed and burning. Christ has told us to watch; "for in such an hour
as ye think not, the Son of man cometh." "Watch and pray" is the charge that
is given us by our Redeemer. Day by day we are to seek the enlightenment of
the Spirit of God, that it may do its office work upon the soul and character.
O, how much time has been wasted through giving attention to trifling things.
Repent and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out when the times of
refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.--The Review and Herald,
March 29, 1892. {1SM 192.1}
May 27, 2004 Comments from an Adventist sister in Ohio:
I just wanted to know if you had comments to your last friend who
has comments about Mrs. White and what she says about time-setting? What he
said is what I have always and still believe. Just wondering since you had
your reply or response to the others I thought. You've sure done a lot of
study!
Have you found work yet? How is your wife? Hope all is well with you both!
My response:
(Repeat of quotes from EGW already added to this web page.)
Did you read?
http://FrankTClark.us/IAUA.html
I have found no work. I will have to commute a long distance or move. I am
unwilling to spend over three hours a day on the road. My wife is unwilling to
move. The Lord will lead. Until then I will continue my study and work of
finding and spreading truth. Further comment:
What about reading that part? Are you saying I shouldn't be using
God? I'm not sure what you mean. My response:
I was asking if you had read it. I was implying did you have any
comments. I am trying to learn not to imply things.
I am not saying you shouldn't be using "God". In fact I am saying the
opposite. I disagree with those who suggest the use of Hebrew words. I will
revise to make that point clearer. I appreciate your comment because it helps
me to know what needs to be clearer.
I am suggesting that the name of our God needs to be known and used by His
people. I am suggesting the word IAUA to make it easier to pronounce. I am
also saying that the name of the Messiah is not "Jesus". He may be properly
referred to as IAUA. If His Jewish name needs to be used it is Yahushua.
The spelling may be subject to question. Further comment:
At least you must be doing okay then without the extra income.
When you talked last about it, when you first were not working, I thought you
had said you'd be okay until about April, so I was just wondering and worried.
Glad all is well. I won't worry!
As for your thoughts on his return this year -- I still personally do not
believe that is what is being said in the Bible. He will tell us with a
thunder all else hears the actual day he is coming (others will hear it as
thunder). As for saying we shall know when it is close, even at the doors,
that could be 10 years or 20 years and still be at the doors with the world
being 6000 years old. :-) That's just my opinion. Don't get me wrong, I truly
believe he is coming soon, but I do not believe if he came in October that our
"time of trouble" would be what the Bible and Mrs. White say it would be. But
again, those are just my opinions. I feel there are just too many things that
will happen. We have to take time to go out and preach, too, which has only
started. There's the time of the end which maybe has started, but it will be
longer than a few months. You give us only 4 months left! There are millions
who still know nothing. I know God says the angels will finish what we don't
(or something like that) but still. I just am concerned with date setting as
it can be very discouraging to some. You can certainly know it is close, but
to give actual dates to me, as I understand Mrs. White says, is not good. What
do you think about that gentleman's comments about what Mrs. White said on
that subject? Do you not agree with her comments?
I just don't want you being so set on it that you are sad if it doesn't
happen. I believe many believe that it may be in October when he comes, but to
have a specific year, especially when that is only 4 months from now, just
doesn't seem very safe. It would be great if you are correct. I'm certainly
ready for heaven! I know it is soon, so I'm happy and trying to spread what I
know whenever I can. I often feel I'm not doing nearly enough
My response:
My normal finances did sustain me through April. I am currently
sustaining my family with money from my retirement account. I am not worried
for God provides.
You are absolutely correct that the Bible does not say IAUA is coming
this year. I apologize for giving that impression. It is only my personal
impression or opinion that He may return this year. I base my impression on an
interpretation of the words of the Bible. I am deeply concerned that my
opinion of a possible date might discourage someone. I thought and prayed long
and hard about it before I published this web page.
I am studying Mrs. White's comments on the subject very carefully.
I also am very happy and trying to spread what I know whenever I can. I
have forsaken many things which once gave me great pleasure to devote myself
completely to study, prayer, and service.
Thank you very much for your insightful and caring comments. I hope you
don't mind that I will quote you anonymously. Further comment:
That's fine if you use what I say -- not that I'm anyone to be
quoted! :-)
I'm glad all is well for you. It is hard to sometimes give up certain
things. When you try, you really realize how much hold they have (had) on you!
I know that about even T.V. I say okay, I'll not watch much or only certain
things, and then as you sit there, something comes up and you say oh just this
time. :-) The devil knows what gets you and he's good at getting you away from
God.
Good for you! I'm proud of you and happy you are doing God's work. I hope
your wife is getting into it all and understanding even more. Say hi to her
for me. My response:
TV is a nightmare temptation. I almost never watch it anymore. The
last thing these days is a little of the Weather Channel. Even that is full of
advertisements and other garbage. I have gotten rid of all my worldly books,
all my worldly CD's, all my computer games and entertainment software,
May 27, 2004 Comments from another Adventist sister in Washington:
Very interesting Frank. I have basically spent all morning
reading. And been very blessed. Please don't post my notes to you as they are
not worthy. :-) I copied your "This Is A Summary of What I Have Learned" and
posted it on my wall. It is a great quick reference. In it you used the term
Elohim repeatedly. Is that for the benefit of others? I didn't understand that
because in the same morning's posts you were stating that to use this title
"aggrandizes the speaker and confuses the listener". Well, the word Elohim did
not confuse me but your usage of it after that did???? Your points are well
taken. But we are told to come out of her, not part of the way, not as WE see
fit, but by all of the light that He brings us. IAUA has made this much
clear to me that we are not to use the pagan titles or names and that it is
part of our duties to teach this truth to the new converts and fellow
believers. Then it will be edifying for them and more importantly will be
preservering His dignity as Acts 3:21 sees its fulfillment. Just as you have
introduced a new way of pronouncing His name and those who seek His face will
learn it, so they will also learn to call Him by unblemished titles, if they
truly love Him and want to honor Him. Who knows what the language of heaven
is. But we do know that IAUA, at the very least, accepted and promoted the
Hebrew, if not Aramaic, language for the history of this planet. Just because
it is predominantly preached in English doesn't negate the original language
of the Scriptures. We are pompous to assume such an idea. This is not meant as
a reprimand to you my dear friend. We are all learning in baby steps. As He is
patient with us we must learn to be patient with each other. I merely needed
to clarify my understanding and question yours in of your seemingly
contradictory posts. :-) Will you please clear it up for me? My
response:
Your comments are as worthy as any and have raised issues I am
considering carefully. It is I who feel unworthy to have my faltering
expressions of my still growing understanding given such emphasis. I am also
humbled by the contradictions you note.
The words you refer to were written approximately April 12 immediately
after the festival. I was impressed with the new teaching that the terms "God"
and "Lord" were pagan. After careful study of the Bible evaluating these new
concepts I rejected the teaching and made my posts of May 25. I now know that
the Bible does not even make the distinction that I was taught. A reading of
Exodus 20:1-3 will show the elohim is used to refer to IAUA and pagan
gods. The contrived distinction is an invention of men not an understanding of
the truth of God.
This is a humbling experience. It reminds me of the recent words of my son:
I understand that mistakes are made - we are human. But I really believe
that there is something serious about presenting truth to people. In the same
way that researchers and news people take great care to validate the sources
of their information, those who preach the gospel should as well. And even
more so as the issues are so much more important and significant.
In this case "take great care to validate the [truth] of their
information". In my eagerness to share the things I learned at festival, I did
not carefully validate them first. I am reminded of 2 Timothy 2:15:
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be
ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Please allow me to share your comments which may benefit others. I will
revise what I have written to reflect my current understanding, I will also
expand and clarify what I have said. Further comment:
All right. You may post it if you think it will be a blessing to
anyone. :-)
September 22, 2004 Comments from a dear elder Adventist sister in Nebraska:
Hi Frank, Rest assured, I never for a minute doubted your loyalty
to the SDA church, I believe as you do that it is through the SDA church that
the oracles of truth have come to us and I support it completely, believe in
it completely, but like you, I believe there is more, but that does not take
away the truths that are there. The truths that we have from the SDA can be
built upon, but not different than has been. I know that there are those who
advocate that S. White's writings have been messed with, and some of that may
be true, but i doubt it. But if that is true, when it comes to what is
necessary for salvation it is clear as a bell and matches perfectly with the
Bible.
While I too support and believe in the SDA, I know also that the day may
come when we might be asked to leave or be disfellowshipped and if that
happens , so be it. NO living human being can take us from the Lord but we
ourselves. They can refuse admission to the church service but not admission
to throne of God. There are some wonderful SDA ministers out there in the
organized church and out of it , like Pastor Vandenburgh. I am so thankful for
those like him and you that are giving their lives to spread the gospel of the
Feast days, this is so important for our last days and like you that do a lot
of studying for those of us who can't do that, but we can look to what you
have learned making it easier on the rest of us. Love and prayers...
Next:
Personal Fulfillments
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