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Preparing for the End of Time
The Lord is Coming! Are you ready?
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Dear Brothers and Sisters in
IAUA (ee-ah-oo-ah) our Father,
Greetings on this day of preparation for the weekly Sabbath. I pray this newsletter finds you in good health and happy in the service of IAUA. This is the 24th day of the 5th month of God's Sacred Calendar in the estimated year 6017 Anno Mundi. The fall Holy Day season begins with Trumpets Sabbath in 5 weeks and 1 day on the evening of the 1st day of the 7th month (Sabbath, September 7th on the 2013, Gregorian Calendar, at sunset on Friday, September 6th). The Sacred month begins on the world day after lunar conjunction and the sacred year begins with the Spring Passover Rule dates my research, and others, has determined for the Gregorian Calendar dates of God's Sacred Calendar. The Millerite Calendar (Spring New Moon Rule) is a month late this year. The Calculated Rabbinical Calendar is two days early in the fall this year.
An excerpt from a LinkedIn discussion about the state of the dead. The intent is not to present all the discussion and issues on the state of the dead but to focus on a specific related principle of Biblical interpretation.
Frank T. Clark • There are some confusing passages in the Bible which a person can choose to interpret to say something different. God is not the author of confusion and He does not contradict Himself. When there appears to be a contradiction, we need to study more carefully to understand God's plan. Discussion is a helpful add-on to guide our study and understanding.
Rev. Jan Michael Nace, ThD • I will weigh in. I have had this discussion off and on over the years. I conclude OT and NT need to be taken in chonological order when it comes to truth [both are true but NT has added truth since Jesus came and brought immortality to life- 2 Tim 1:10]. Randy's comments are excellent. I believe the Adventist view is attractive and certainly helps answer a lot of anxiety. But I also see in the NT those who "depart" are said to have left the body here and therefore go someplace. I believe that is a conscious [not active necessarily] place in the presence with the Lord, awaiting the resurrection. I do not see this as a salvation issue, but it has become an issue not permitting me to associate with the SDA as an official member unfortunately.
Frank T. Clark • Thank you for joining the discussion with an alternate viewpoint. I understand your viewpoint but I would like to see what other evidence you find in the NT so that we can examine it. I do not believe it is valid to base an entire belief on a single verse of the Bible. We wish to examine every verse which seems to contradict the harmony of the teachings of the entire Bible. You mention: MKJV 2Ti 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given us in Christ Jesus before the eternal times. * 1:10 But it is now having been manifested by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has made death of no effect, bringing life and immortality to light through the gospel; Your interpretation of this verse raises some questions. Do you believe that up until the death of our Savior people died and entered a state of no conscious thought but afterward they do not die but "depart" and remain conscious? The concept of being conscious "someplace" in the presence of our Savior not only contradicts the rest of the Bible but is very vague and also raises some questions. Salvation is based on all of God's truth. There cannot be one truth for some and a different truth for others. It is also true that we do not know all truth immediately but our Savior has promised that we will know all truth. MKJV John 16:13 However, when He, the Spirit of Truth, has come, He will guide you into ALL TRUTH. For He shall not speak of Himself, but whatever He hears, He shall speak. And He will announce to you things to come. The confusion I sense with the verse you mention is a matter of timing. I believe this verse is in harmony with the rest of the Bible and the other words of Paul. There was no change in the penalty of sin. The Garden of Eden was God's perfect implementation of His creation and was never intended to change. The entrance of sin brought death. We see in this verse that the Godhead had a plan from the beginning to overcome the penalty of death for sin by the sacrificial death of one of the Godhead, our Savior. The sacrifice was promised from the beginning of sin but the actual sacrifice did not occur until a later time. This was the "manifestation". Those who accept the gift of salvation and live a life of obedience will be restored to the Garden of Eden condition in the future at the time of God's proclaiming: Rev 21:4 And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes. And there will be no more death, nor mourning, nor crying out, nor will there be any more pain; for the first things passed away. Restating the last sentence of 2 Timothy 1:10 using this understanding: He has made the finality of death of no effect, bringing the promise of life and immortality to light through the gospel. The promise has not come yet. This understanding may not change how you choose to understand but I hope it shows an alternative understanding that is in harmony with all of the Bible (and Adventist belief). I look forward to examining other verses you will suggest and I believe we can show an alternative understanding. The goal is not to change your mind but to work together to find greater understanding of truth.
Rev. Jan Michael Nace, ThD • Frank: My ref for being in the presence of the Saviour is only for the NT since Christ has risen and made that option possible. OT saints were in Abraham's bosom as the Saviour stated. As for the refs with this I will respond when time permits.
Frank T. Clark • I agree with the explanation of the story of Lazarus and the rich man as just a story to illustrate an idea. I also believe in addition that our Savior was being prophetic in that He would rise from the dead and they would still not listen. There are so many twists of logic to believe that story truly illustrates the dead go to the bosom of Abraham. If it were true, then you would have to ask where did they go in the two thousand years before Abraham? What is the next explanation to deny the simple Biblical truth that the dead do not go anywhere, do not think, or do anything until the resurrection. Furthermore, Revelation clearly describes that hellfire does not exist until after the millennium. So where are the wicked dead? Let us look to the Bible for truth. Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years. Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be loosed out of his prison. Rev 20:8 And he will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle. The number of them is as the sand of the sea. Rev 20:9 And they went up over the breadth of the earth and circled around the camp of the saints, and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of Heaven and devoured them. Also notice they are devoured and not burning forever. I love these words of Peter. 2Pe 3:15 And think of the long-suffering of our Lord as salvation (as our beloved brother Paul also has written to you according to the wisdom given to him 2Pe 3:16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable pervert, as also they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction). Many twist the Scriptures, to their own destruction. I pray that the power of the Holy Spirit will prevail and reach us all with all truth.
Rev. Jan Michael Nace, ThD • I know I will be speaking against the tide as I am on a site that believes diffferently than me. So I will simply say all the gymnastics used by various interpreters who do not like the literal meaning of this passage (and there are many of various denominations by the way) try every means possible to do away with the simple literal meaning of bliss or punishment after death. Why would Jesus waste time making vague and complex points by giving a parable that only a few could understand? My belief is the Bible (and especially the NT) is easily understood for simply what it says and does not take doctoral degrees to interpret.
Frank T. Clark • Michael, I think we must agree to disagree and leave it to the work of the Holy Spirit to lead us to all truth. I don't have the heart to discuss every verse and every point because it quickly becomes just a step away from an argument. I have a great deal of respect for your discussion and opinion because you speak reasonably without just repeating the same old tired slogans. It is clear you have studied carefully and know your Bible. I disagree about the conclusion. As seekers of truth, we all continue our daily study and seeking of God with all our heart, all our soul, all our mind, and with all our strength.
Frank T. Clark • I submitted a comment suggesting the parable of Lazarus and the rich man for discussion. It is clear to most people that a parable is a story or metaphor to illustrate a point. The story itself is often completely fictitious and not based on fact or Biblical doctrine. This is absolutely the case with this parable. There is no teaching in the Bible before the time of Christ about the "bosom of Abraham". There is no indication of anything other than the dead are asleep, which Christ also said Himself. The consuming fire is clearly described in Revelation as an event far in the future. The Bible does not contradict itself!
Rev. Jan Michael Nace, ThD • Frank: My comment on theology was not meant to be critical. I was referring to leaving the plain meaning of Scipture into an interpretative zone. For me the rule is when Scripture can be taken literally (plain meaning) do so, If not, look for the literal application of the Scripture. Adventism shares much in common with historical Protestant hermeneutics. But this subject we are discussing is unique to Adventism and few others and frankly (no pun indended!) not shared by mainstream evangelical/historical Protestant Christianity. If someone was reading the Bible on a desert island alone with no help I wonder if they would come up with some of the interpretations we have discussed?
Frank T. Clark • I agree with the idea of a literal plain meaning, if it does not create a contradiction within the words of the Bible. The Bible has only one source (our Savior). I believe God cannot contradict Himself. 1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. God would never mislead us. Heb 6:18 so that by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us, Satan however will do everything in his power to mislead us. 2Th 2:8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the breath of His mouth and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming, 2Th 2:9 whose coming is according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 2Th 2:10 and with all deceit of unrighteousness in those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, so that they might be saved. 2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie, 2Th 2:12 so that all those who do not believe the truth, but delight in unrighteousness, might be condemned. I do not find it acceptable to believe the Bible contradicts itself. I believe that when there is an apparent contradiction, we need to keep studying to resolve that contradiction. Do you find contradictions within the teachings of the Bible acceptable? Yes, I believe a person studying (not just reading) the Bible on a desert island could come to the same interpretations I have, when guided by the Holy Spirit. John 16:13 However, when He, the Spirit of Truth, has come, He will guide you into ALL truth. For He shall not speak of Himself, but whatever He hears, He shall speak. And He will announce to you things to come. Though I have read what others say, I have diligently sought to understand and verify or refute for myself. I have always responded with only the words of the Bible and not another person or denomination. I know that you see things differently and we are discussing our different understandings. 2Ti 2:15 Study earnestly to present yourself approved to God, a workman that does not need to be ashamed, RIGHTLY dividing the Word of Truth. I hope I give you the sense of a spirit of open discussion and not a confrontational debate. Frankly speaking... :-)
Frank T. Clark • I think I introduced a VERY serious question, which I suspect is at the basis of many Biblical discussion disagreements and particularly this discussion. Do you find apparent contradictions within the teachings of the Bible acceptable? If a person answers "YES", then their belief is at the whim of which verses they choose to believe based on their personal understanding of the verses. They must close their mind and ignore or refuse to accept other verses. If a person answers "NO", then they are required to study deeply to find the resolution to the contradiction. They must study the understanding of every verse to reach a resolution. A difference in the answer to this question creates an impossible situation, which only the Holy Spirit can resolve. Discussion will never resolve this difference of understanding. I believe every thought of the Bible is inspired by God. God does not create confusion and God does not lie. Therefore, God's Word does not contradict itself. God's Word is a Solid Rock, it is not Shifting Sand. If my understanding creates a contradiction in God's Word, then I must submit to the guidance of the Holy Spirit and learn a better understanding. This has created wrenching and painful changes in my understanding of God's Word and has alienated me from many but I am at peace with God.
Do you believe the Bible contradicts itself? I pray we may all continue to seek love, peace, and unity in truth preparing for the soon coming of IAUShUO (ee-ah-oo-shoo-oh) Messiah, the Son of God.
Frank T. Clark Next: 2013-08-09 Sensationalism |
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Revised 2013-08-09 |